Comments on: Fix the Tax Code Friday: Ethics, Morals and Tax http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/ Paying taxes is painful... but reading about them shouldn't be. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:55:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Kelly http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8958 Kelly Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:23:48 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8958 I agree with you, Jill! ;) My last baby was a big one and he nearly killed my back. I can't imagine it being worse - I think Nadya told NBC that she gained 100 pounds? I agree with you, Jill! ;) My last baby was a big one and he nearly killed my back. I can’t imagine it being worse – I think Nadya told NBC that she gained 100 pounds?

]]> By: Kelly http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8957 Kelly Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:22:31 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8957 Robert, I agree re the price of homes relative to today's salaries. Also an issue? Down payments. I've gotten a lot of flak for saying so, but I think down payments <em>should</em> be required in order to get a mortgage. I think that makes it feel more real when you have some ownership in a home. In contrast, there are folks who owe more than the house is worth from the outset. Not the best start... Robert, I agree re the price of homes relative to today’s salaries. Also an issue? Down payments. I’ve gotten a lot of flak for saying so, but I think down payments should be required in order to get a mortgage. I think that makes it feel more real when you have some ownership in a home. In contrast, there are folks who owe more than the house is worth from the outset. Not the best start…

]]> By: Robert http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8902 Robert Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:16:21 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8902 Skip: Shot? i was thinking a public flogging would suffice...but seriously... Unfortunately, with that many children, she could never afford to work another day in her life, unless she were to find free daycare. Her other six kids are not very old from what I understand so unlike most large families that grow naturally, where there is enough of an age gap from oldest to youngest where the oldest bear the burden of helping care for the younger ones, her kids will likely not be too much help with the younger ones. I am not sure if she was a counselor...is that right? Well...good chatting with you... Skip: Shot? i was thinking a public flogging would suffice…but seriously…

Unfortunately, with that many children, she could never afford to work another day in her life, unless she were to find free daycare. Her other six kids are not very old from what I understand so unlike most large families that grow naturally, where there is enough of an age gap from oldest to youngest where the oldest bear the burden of helping care for the younger ones, her kids will likely not be too much help with the younger ones.
I am not sure if she was a counselor…is that right?
Well…good chatting with you…

]]> By: Skip McQuaid http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8896 Skip McQuaid Sat, 14 Feb 2009 07:34:26 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8896 Robert - my response was apparently an example of not walking in other folks moccasins - But you are right - I have absolutely no idea what younger families are going through now - I do know, however, that I am glad I am not having to do it. Three of my kids stopped by earlier and I asked them to read the original question and give me their thoughts - both of them thought the doctor and the mother ought to be taken out and shot - condemned for being too stupid to be on the planet. But the one daughter I have who does not have any children asked a pertinent question - this daughter is a psychiatrist - who in the world would give the lady a job as a counselor? Robert – my response was apparently an example of not walking in other folks moccasins – But you are right – I have absolutely no idea what younger families are going through now – I do know, however, that I am glad I am not having to do it. Three of my kids stopped by earlier and I asked them to read the original question and give me their thoughts – both of them thought the doctor and the mother ought to be taken out and shot – condemned for being too stupid to be on the planet. But the one daughter I have who does not have any children asked a pertinent question – this daughter is a psychiatrist – who in the world would give the lady a job as a counselor?

]]> By: Robert http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8895 Robert Sat, 14 Feb 2009 06:07:29 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8895 Skip - while I agree with you regarding your message, with all due respects, the cost ratio to live these days is not what it once was in the 60-70's. My parents bought their house in '69 for $24000 on cumulative wages totaling at most, $18,000 annually. Those same houses are selling at $400k plus...so if we were to try to equal the income ratio alone to match the time, a family would have to earn a cumulative income of $300k annually. What I am trying to say is that the cost of living and the cost of housing including rent (especially here in California) is so out of whack that it doesn't compare to the times in the late 60's, early 70's. But you are right...we all hope the children are well-adjusted, healthy and happy... As far as the IQ test, that was my attempt at bad humor... Thank you for serving our country and devoting your life to your children...it sounds like they had a wonderful father! From the sounds of it, you never lived off the system...it sounds like you worked very hard for your family to get them the best you could afford, and you deserve kudos for that. Realistically, I have a tough enough time affording three kids making close to 100k a year...imagine the cost of 14... That is the biggest issue most people have with the mother of those children... Not only did she ALREADY have six, which in this day and age is almost impossible financially unless you are wealthy, but she had EIGHT more...using artificial means....while it sounds like you tried your heart out to be responsible, this woman is clearly irresponsible....worse yet, she was living off the system, unlike you...We are all paying for her to have 14 children...that is what angers people...it didn't have to happen and probably shouldn't have... Skip – while I agree with you regarding your message, with all due respects, the cost ratio to live these days is not what it once was in the 60-70′s. My parents bought their house in ’69 for $24000 on cumulative wages totaling at most, $18,000 annually. Those same houses are selling at $400k plus…so if we were to try to equal the income ratio alone to match the time, a family would have to earn a cumulative income of $300k annually.

What I am trying to say is that the cost of living and the cost of housing including rent (especially here in California) is so out of whack that it doesn’t compare to the times in the late 60′s, early 70′s.

But you are right…we all hope the children are well-adjusted, healthy and happy…

As far as the IQ test, that was my attempt at bad humor…

Thank you for serving our country and devoting your life to your children…it sounds like they had a wonderful father! From the sounds of it, you never lived off the system…it sounds like you worked very hard for your family to get them the best you could afford, and you deserve kudos for that. Realistically, I have a tough enough time affording three kids making close to 100k a year…imagine the cost of 14…

That is the biggest issue most people have with the mother of those children…
Not only did she ALREADY have six, which in this day and age is almost impossible financially unless you are wealthy, but she had EIGHT more…using artificial means….while it sounds like you tried your heart out to be responsible, this woman is clearly irresponsible….worse yet, she was living off the system, unlike you…We are all paying for her to have 14 children…that is what angers people…it didn’t have to happen and probably shouldn’t have…

]]> By: Fred http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8894 Fred Sat, 14 Feb 2009 04:34:46 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8894 It is a false dichotomy. Unless we are prepared to consider her behavior an illness, she is voluntarily stealing from society for her own amusement. That is both a money and a moral issue. True it is difficult to separate those who are compelled to, say, abuse drugs versus those who simply do not try and resist their impulses. And we do not always do a sensible job of it. Morally of course neither she nor the Duggars are paragons of virtue. The world is overrun with humans in general and Americans in particular. I doubt that it is necessary to restrict individuals who can afford their children. As to the rest, the sensible thing is to limit AFDC so that a family gets no more for 8 kids than it does for 4 (or 2 or whatever). This would result in forcing folks like Ms. Suleman to give up the new babies. Which would be a good thing, no? Yes, several of her children get disability. This money is intended to help pay for the increased cost of raising such children. It looks to me like she embezzled that money to help pay for the implantation. Were I the local D.A., I would immediately investigate that possibility. If so, she should (1) be prosecuted; and (2) lose all parental rights, permanently. It is a false dichotomy. Unless we are prepared to consider her behavior an illness, she is voluntarily stealing from society for her own amusement. That is both a money and a moral issue. True it is difficult to separate those who are compelled to, say, abuse drugs versus those who simply do not try and resist their impulses. And we do not always do a sensible job of it.

Morally of course neither she nor the Duggars are paragons of virtue. The world is overrun with humans in general and Americans in particular. I doubt that it is necessary to restrict individuals who can afford their children. As to the rest, the sensible thing is to limit AFDC so that a family gets no more for 8 kids than it does for 4 (or 2 or whatever). This would result in forcing folks like Ms. Suleman to give up the new babies. Which would be a good thing, no?

Yes, several of her children get disability. This money is intended to help pay for the increased cost of raising such children. It looks to me like she embezzled that money to help pay for the implantation. Were I the local D.A., I would immediately investigate that possibility. If so, she should (1) be prosecuted; and (2) lose all parental rights, permanently.

]]> By: Skip McQuaid http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8893 Skip McQuaid Sat, 14 Feb 2009 03:49:21 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8893 Can't afford more kids so that's it - no more for you? Thinking about our 5 kids and 15 grandkids - Our first was born while I was In Viet Nam making about $78 a month plus combat pay. The second - same scenario except a little more money - I think probably about $150 a month. Our third? I was working two jobs and going to college - you don't get much broker than that. The 4th and 5th we were a little better off - but I cannot imagine life without them and don't even want to think about it. But suppose someone had said we couldn't have them because we were too poor? As far as an IQ test goes - I know I would have flunked that - 2 out of my 3 tours in sunny Southeast Asia were vouluntary which would be proof positive I was nuts. Wouldn't even need a test to show that. I don't know the answer to any of the questions raised regarding morality or whatever - all I do know is that I will pray that all those children grow up to be well adjusted, healthy, happy kids and if it costs the taxpayer a bundle for that to happen - well, so be it - I can't think of anything more worthwhile to spend money on then kids - whosever they are - they, and only they, are the important things we leave behind - everything else is just nonsense. Can’t afford more kids so that’s it – no more for you? Thinking about our 5 kids and 15 grandkids – Our first was born while I was In Viet Nam making about $78 a month plus combat pay. The second – same scenario except a little more money – I think probably about $150 a month. Our third? I was working two jobs and going to college – you don’t get much broker than that. The 4th and 5th we were a little better off – but I cannot imagine life without them and don’t even want to think about it. But suppose someone had said we couldn’t have them because we were too poor? As far as an IQ test goes – I know I would have flunked that – 2 out of my 3 tours in sunny Southeast Asia were vouluntary which would be proof positive I was nuts. Wouldn’t even need a test to show that. I don’t know the answer to any of the questions raised regarding morality or whatever – all I do know is that I will pray that all those children grow up to be well adjusted, healthy, happy kids and if it costs the taxpayer a bundle for that to happen – well, so be it – I can’t think of anything more worthwhile to spend money on then kids – whosever they are – they, and only they, are the important things we leave behind – everything else is just nonsense.

]]> By: mona http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8891 mona Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:42:32 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8891 Talk about tax dollars at work, for anyone that doesn't know-low birth weight babies or premmies get a small Supplemental Security Income disability check while in the hospital $35.00, then when they are discharged, they get $637 (California pays more)per month until at least age 1, when or if they are reviewed by Social Security to see if they still meet the criteria of not functioning at their age-appropriate level. $637 times 8 is $5,096 in addition to the $1911 per month she gets for her three older disabled children, WIC, food stamps-what's her incentive to go back to work. Talk about tax dollars at work, for anyone that doesn’t know-low birth weight babies or premmies get a small Supplemental Security Income disability check while in the hospital $35.00, then when they are discharged, they get $637 (California pays more)per month until at least age 1, when or if they are reviewed by Social Security to see if they still meet the criteria of not functioning at their age-appropriate level. $637 times 8 is $5,096 in addition to the $1911 per month she gets for her three older disabled children, WIC, food stamps-what’s her incentive to go back to work.

]]> By: Urbie http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8890 Urbie Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:29:01 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8890 Disability is the most abused government program we have. I've known... at least... (counting on fingers) a dozen people who were on 100% disability, and of those, not more than 2 or 3 were what you and I would call "disabled." They were perfectly capable of walking, driving, cooking, shopping, and -- if they had any interest in doing so -- earning a living. Yet they were able to get their doctors to sign off on their "bad back" as a 100% disabling condition. That's a ripoff. Yeah, yeah, I know how tough back problems can be -- I've had some myself, at one point bad enough that I'd have to drop to the floor at a moment's notice, like Dennis Rodman used to do when he played for the Pistons and had his own massage guy on call at all times. But I've known too many people parlay a temporary injury into "permanent, total disability" to be interested in having my tax money pay for their SSI and SSDI. One of my dad's buddies is a truck driver -- he's been "100% disabled" for 20 years, collects from the government, and drives a truck for cash. Nice work if you can get it! Disability is the most abused government program we have. I’ve known… at least… (counting on fingers) a dozen people who were on 100% disability, and of those, not more than 2 or 3 were what you and I would call “disabled.” They were perfectly capable of walking, driving, cooking, shopping, and — if they had any interest in doing so — earning a living. Yet they were able to get their doctors to sign off on their “bad back” as a 100% disabling condition. That’s a ripoff. Yeah, yeah, I know how tough back problems can be — I’ve had some myself, at one point bad enough that I’d have to drop to the floor at a moment’s notice, like Dennis Rodman used to do when he played for the Pistons and had his own massage guy on call at all times. But I’ve known too many people parlay a temporary injury into “permanent, total disability” to be interested in having my tax money pay for their SSI and SSDI. One of my dad’s buddies is a truck driver — he’s been “100% disabled” for 20 years, collects from the government, and drives a truck for cash. Nice work if you can get it!

]]> By: Robert http://www.taxgirl.com/fix-the-tax-code-friday-ethics-morals-and-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-8888 Robert Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:27:56 +0000 http://www.taxgirl.com/?p=2584#comment-8888 While we're at it, perhaps we can establish a way to test for a certain level of IQ before childbirth as well...of course, that would be redundant as anyone with any semblance of intelligence wouldn't have six kids nowadays let alone 14... Didn't she work for a mental hospital before she ended up on disability...can we really be certain she wasn't one of the patients who escaped? I mean for god's sake...14 kids???!! Two can be a handful...let alone six...but 14??!!! they need to check her last place of employment for any escapees... While we’re at it, perhaps we can establish a way to test for a certain level of IQ before childbirth as well…of course, that would be redundant as anyone with any semblance of intelligence wouldn’t have six kids nowadays let alone 14…

Didn’t she work for a mental hospital before she ended up on disability…can we really be certain she wasn’t one of the patients who escaped? I mean for god’s sake…14 kids???!! Two can be a handful…let alone six…but 14??!!! they need to check her last place of employment for any escapees…

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