It turns out that “Joe the Plumber” has more tax issues than were spotlighted during the final presidential debate. He doesn’t just not like taxes, he apparently doesn’t like to pay them. He owes the State of Ohio nearly $1200 in back taxes; Ohio has filed a lien against him to recover amounts due.
“Joe the Plumber” is really named Samuel J. Wurzelbacher and before moving to Ohio, he lived in John McCain’s home state of Arizona. He became a household name when he told Senator Obama during the debates that he was worried about Obama’s tax proposal. McCain used the opportunity to criticize Obama’s tax plan, saying, “what you want to do to ‘Joe the plumber’ and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.”
Wurzelbacher has said in an interview on “Good Morning America” that high earners shouldn’t be “penalized for being successful.” Apparently, he believes that includes paying his taxes. Under Obama’s tax proposal, Wurzelbacher’s tax bill would be an additional $900 if he netted, not grossed, $280,000 of income.
Interestingly, though Wurzelbacher talked about wanting to buy a plumbing business, he doesn’t have a plumber’s license. According to the State of Ohio, where the business is located, he is not registered as a plumber.
[Author’s note: While I do enjoy spirited debate, I will not tolerate those commenters that spam by posting numerous versions of the same comments under different names. That’s not commenting, it’s spamming and it’s rude. I realize that “Joe the Plumber” is a political topic and you want to get your point across. But posting the same comment under different names ten times in a row, as has happened on this post, doesn’t add anything to the same conversation. Comments are in moderation: if you post spam, it will be marked as such and your comment will not appear. For more about my comment policy, click here.]
Honestly, since your blog is titled Tax Girl, you should understand just how many small business people have tax liens. And how easy they are to solve. Secondly, though you might not understand this, as a subcontractor, this guy isn’t required to have a license, he works for a Licensed Contractor. So, the argument that you’ve just outlined doesn’t hold water. 😉
You might know taxes, you sure don’t know a darn thing about plumbing. To be a lic. Plumber one must reach the degree of being a master plumber, this takes years, and I do mean years, of schooling and on the job training. As an employee Joe the Plumber is not reuiered to have a lic., the owner of the company is, but not Joe. If Joe were to some day open his own shop then he would need to nmeet this req
You might know taxes, you sure don’t know a darn thing about plumbing. To be a lic. Plumber one must reach the degree of being a master plumber, this takes years, and I do mean years, of schooling and on the job training. As an employee Joe the Plumber is not reuiered to have a lic., the owner of the company is, but not Joe. If Joe were to some day open his own shop then he would need to meet this requierment, until then he works under the lic. of the shop. As with the news media which is looking harder at a working class guy than they ever have at Barrack Obama you all need to follow the simple rule of it is better to remain silent and appear the foll than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.
Deb, it takes a long time to have a lien placed. There’s a whole process of notifications, etc., and the debt had been certified by the state for more than six months before that lien was filed. So it wasn’t just failing to file or pay one day and oops, a lien. The lien was placed in early 2007 and you’re right, it is easy to get rid of: just pay up.
Re all the comments about him not holding a license. The context of his argument to Obama was that he “about to buy” the plumbing business – that would require a license.
I guess his question had no merit because he owed back taxes. I guess his character is in question because he asked the almighty Obama a simple question that makes Obama look bad.
The fact is that Obama is more likely to become a plumber than he is to lower taxes. Lowering taxes goes against everything that he stands for. He is lying to get votes. If tax cuts are important to you, vote McCain, he is much more likely to cut your taxes or at least not raise them as Obama surely will. All Obama has to do is let the Bush tax cuts expire and we will all see a tax increase if we make over a meager amount.
Obama may lower taxes on those that pay none. He can give low income workers a 10 million percent tax cut. 100000.00 x $0 in taxes paid will net a income tax savings of $0. Then Obama can increase spending and taxes and still say he gave a huge percentage cut to the lowest wage earners.
It’s not about Joe the plumber; it’s all about what Obama said which pinpointed his wealth distribution philosophy. Karl Marx would be proud.
Whoa, guys, let’s look at this realistically. What with the $85 billion to AIG (not to mention the previous expenditures) and the $700 billion bank rescue bill — which, by the way, I’m now thinking will not be enough, I don’t think it’s going to matter much who our next President is. Nuthin’s free, and I have a feeling we’re all going to pay for this. The only question is, is it going to be me or someone who makes more than me?
But, I guess my real question is, what does all of this have to do with tax law?
As an Ohio CPA who represents a number of small businesses, I can tell you sincerely that “Joe the Plumber” is typical of both small business owners, and those who aspire to such. I fail to see how any of your points (or those being trumped out by the liberal media) have ANYTHING to do with the point of his question or, more importantly, Obama’s answer.
Lizzi,
Perhaps that is representative of your clients but my experience is different – and we rep many small businesses from lawyers to doctors to ISPs. We have relatively few business owners that walk away every year with taxable income of more than $250,000. My experience is consistent with the tax stats as reported by the IRS which indicates that that kind of income is reported by about 2% of the country, or 5% (ish, depending on the year) of taxpayers. Stats, for those who have interest, can be found here: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=98123,00.html
Chris,
I didn’t say it was a bad question. I do, however, question his integrity when he complains about a tax proposal and yet has an outstanding tax lien. If you’re going to talk about parity – and paying your fair share – then do it, no?
How much wealth do you think “Joe the Plumber” has to spread?
Kelly, I love your blog but you’re not being fair on this one.
Why are you questioning the “integrity” of a mere voter who asked a Presidential candidate a question? Should we check the background and moral character of every person who asked Obama a question at the second (town hall) debate?
Imagine if McCain and his supporters did that? My guess is that you’d be skewering them for attacking “the little guy.”
The attacks on Wurzelbacher are unprecedented and repugnant. And those who support Obama on the grounds that he is for the middle-class, working man should be the most strident voices condemning, not condoning, them.
By the way, does the fact that Wurzelbacher hasn’t paid his taxes or is not a licensed plumber somehow sterilize Obama’s amazingly revealing admission that “we need to spread the wealth around?”
Peter,
I disagree. If the roles were reversed, I would say the same thing. I think you only have to dig a little deep on the blog to see that I am not a champion of Pelosi and her supporters either. I think the latest stimulus proposal is a fiasco and have said so repeatedly.
But I smell a rat here.
I don’t think “Joe the Plumber” was ever “about to buy” this plumbing business (in fact, he has not been in discussions to buy the business, according to reports). I think he thought it would make a good story.
About that business? The one he claimed he was “about to buy”? The business that he believed grossed just over $500k last year? According to Ohio business records, the business reported $100k of revenue. But even if it were grossing $500k, what are the chances that the owner is pocketing $250k of taxable income? Na-da. Wurzelbacher has since acknowledged on air that he did not expect to make half of that, despite what he said.
So here’s the scoop: I don’t have a problem with the question. Just be honest. Why make up a story? Why not say, “I have a problem with your tax policy and here’s what my problem is…” Or say, “Why do you think it’s fair to raise taxes on folks in the top tax bracket?”
Because it’s sooo much more dramatic to create a scenario that doesn’t really exist.
And to clarify for those of you who are just popping by for the first time – the “Kelly” in the comments is actually me and I write the blog. The comments that were deleted using rather unfortunate language to describe the “liberal reader” – that would be me that you’re referring to. Irregardless, I won’t tolerate nasty language or personal comments on the site. If you want to disagree, fine. But go somewhere else if you’re just being rude.
Wurzelbacher’s integrity is irrelevant. Obama’s answer to Wurzelbacher’s question, however, isn’t.
The attacks on Joe the Plumber are an attempt to divert attention away from Obama’s answer.
The larger story (i.e.that Presidential candidate Barack Obama believes in wealth redistribution) is missed when we focus on the veracity of a single voter in Ohio.
And what about my suggestion that we do background checks on everyone who ever asks a Presidential candidate a question? If they don’t pass the moral character test, then the candidate’s answer, no matter how revealing or disturbing, should be stricken from the record.
By the way, I agree with you that everyone should be honest at all times and under all circumstances.
Like you and me.
The whole issue of wealth redistribution is interesting – especially as our entire income system is, in fact, predicated on that idea.
The history of the federal estate and gift tax – the whole tax was really about preventing the wealthy from hoarding their cash and escaping taxation.
And income taxes? The first official one in the US was progressive. And the Reagan tax cuts? Offset by business tax increases (and eventually increased).
Tax has always been about redistribution. It’s just a matter of degree each time.
(Yes, just that geeky. I enjoy tax history.)
The revealing point in this comentary is that there are quite a few people who love to identify with a fictional “Joe the Plumber,” with the working man’s dream of owning his own business. The problem is these dreams often are driven by disdain for their current boss or other athority. Everyone is expected to pay taxes, like it or not. This guy, for some reason, doesn’t understand or doesn’t like taxes in any form and doesn’t seem to want to understand how O’bama’s plan would not directly affect him. I know that small businesses account for much of economic growth, but are we shooting ourselves in the foot if we let any old “JOE” start a business and run it poorly without paying taxes!
I find it comical that those who want to confiscate the fruits of my labor and redistribute it to those of their choice need to hide that fact so bad that they would unleash their “dogs” to destroy anyone who may help to uncover it. The funny thing is that although they expend a lot of energy to make him sorry he ever asked a question by viciously ripping him apart, he’s not running for anything and doesn’t need one ounce of credibility. Whether he’s licensed or has tax liens is unimportant. The Devil himself could have asked the question, but it was the “Great One” who let it slip, revealing his true goals.
As for redistribution, I just haven’t been made to see what incentive for hard work replaces being able to keep the income. It wouldn’t take much more “progressive redistribution” for me and many others to suddenly realize that the hours we put in are no longer worth it. Perhaps the “progressives” will be delighted to step in and do the work without reward. I guess it won’t be much longer before I’m investigated and ripped apart like Joe for daring to make such a comment. Isn’t freedom of speech great?
I think obama’s plan is what us single moms who get no child support need. And sadly there are quite a few of us. Single dads too. I cant pay the taxes that someone who makes $250,000 can. I have 3 children and i make about $40,000 a year, including medications for a child who has a chronic illness. We sometimes have to choose between food and medicine, or food and gas or food and anything thats due. Let alone have a savings account or retirement or college fund. Why do the well off think they are the only ones who deserve it? I work hard, everyday, as do many people, i dont want to be penalized for it.
The fact that he owes back taxes means nothing to the overall conversation of taxes.
Many Americans owe back taxes.
That he is among those many Americans is of no reflection upon McCain, it’s a stupid MSM strawman.
If you pay attention to the news (which isn’t hard given this new thingy called the internet) he is a plumber and because of the way he is employed he does not need a plumber’s license nor do any of his co-workers.
According to this story, plumbers in Lucas County are required to have licenses. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber
“And [n]either Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo.”
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And I actually think the license thing isn’t a big deal. As I stated before, I only mentioned it in my story because it said to me that he wasn’t really planning on buying the business any time soon, despite his earnest story, something that he has since confirmed.
I understand folks being behind in their taxes. I understand that folks work without proper licenses. I do not understand why I have to give my money to someone else.
Skip, you understand folks behind in their taxes and working without proper licenses? What you don’t understand is that paying taxe (or getting tax breaks) is not just about giving your money away to someone else. It’s about creating incentives for people to do what’s right for the society that we ALL live in. Its not socialism…it’s just creating a base from which everyone has oportunity. Do you really want to live in a country that does not fund their infrastructure (Police, Schools, Bridges, basic healthcare)? You could be the most financially successful person on the planet, but if you don’t support these things you your actual standard of living goes down.
Joe’s a big BS and is probably paid by Republicans or McCain’s campaign. What a joke when this guy don’t even have a license. To me, he’s just an attention seeking whore.
And exactly what infrastructure did the 780 billion we just gave away fund? And exactly what part of that 780 billion goes for basic health care? I can see the incentives involved – I think they are called ‘golden parachutes”. I do not object to paying my taxes – I object to what they are used for. When talking about giving my money away I was referring to giving it to folks who choose to live in hurricane prone places and then expecting me to pay the bill. Or folks who buy things they cannot afford and then wanting me to pay for it. Little things such as those that have absolutely nothing to do with infrastructure or health care or any of those other things you mentioned. It appears to me that I am just paying for other folks bad judgments.
This guy is selffish. For someone to complain about paying (or in his case not paying) an additional $9– so that his less well off employees, customers, neighbors, fellow Ohioans and Americans could be a little better off is disgusting. To ask for him to spend a little bit more to help solve some serious national problems is not being anti-capitalist but is pro-American. I hope this guy’s 15 minutes are over.
Why the point about having to be a plumber to own a plumbing business? I don’t think you have to be a certified plumber to own a plumbing business – I’m sure it helps!
Chuck – you do have to be certified in the county where the business is located (see links above in comments). I thought it relevant because it contributes to the idea that this was a bogus scenario – “Joe” has since admitted that he was not actually attempting to purchase the business any time soon.
Again, the only relevance to any of this (the liens, the license) is that the entire scenario was fictitious. There was no actual plan to buy the business and the business doesn’t have revenues anywhere near what “Joe” implied. Made a nice story but wasn’t true.
Which brings me back to my original statement which is that if “Joe” had a question, why not just ask it? Why “embellish” his story in order to prove his point that he’s not satisfied with Obama’s tax plan? I don’t have to be suffering from a terminal illness to ask questions about either candidate’s health care plan.
And that’s my last word on “Joe the Plumber.” Maybe. 😉
I guess if you want to question your government you need to have an clean history. Unless you associated with known terrorists and slum lords, then you couldn’t possibly be questioned. All hail the messiah.
I forgot about how much of a stir this caused. He received such a huge amount of attention.